Major error?[]
I think there is a major error on this page. Teutonic Knights is one of the barbarian tribes present in Jadwigas Legacy Scenario.
From game data:
!-- Scenario-specific barbarian tribes-->
Robal (talk) 05:55, April 22, 2020 (UTC)
Tag="LOC_BARBARIAN_CAVALRY_1 <Text>Tatars</Text>
Tag="LOC_BARBARIAN_CAVALRY_2 <Text>Golden Horde</Text>
Tag="LOC_BARBARIAN_CAVALRY_3 <Text>Crimean Khanate</Text>
Tag="LOC_BARBARIAN_CAVALRY_4 <Text>Tatars from the Golden Horde</Text>
Tag="LOC_BARBARIAN_COSSACKS_1 <Text>Cossacks</Text>
Tag="LOC_BARBARIAN_COSSACKS_2 <Text>Cossack Hetmanate</Text>
Tag="LOC_BARBARIAN_KNIGHTS_1 <Text>Teutonic Knights</Text>
Tag="LOC_BARBARIAN_KNIGHTS_2 <Text>Teutonic Order</Text>
Tag="LOC_BARBARIAN_KNIGHTS_3 <Text>Livonian Order</Text>
Tag="LOC_BARBARIAN_MOLDAVA_1 <Text>Moldavians</Text>
Tag="LOC_BARBARIAN_MOLDAVA_2 <Text>Principality of Moldavia</Text>
Tag="LOC_BARBARIAN_OTTOMAN_1 <Text>Ottomans</Text>
Tag="LOC_BARBARIAN_OTTOMAN_2 <Text>Ottoman Empire</Text>
Tag="LOC_BARBARIAN_RUS_1 <Text>Rus</Text>
Tag="LOC_BARBARIAN_RUS_2 <Text>Grand Duchy of Moscow</Text>
Tag="LOC_BARBARIAN_RUS_3 <Text>Novgorod Republic</Text>
Tag="LOC_BARBARIAN_RUS_4 <Text>Tsardom of Russia</Text>
Tag="LOC_BARBARIAN_SWEDES_1 <Text>Swedes</Text>
Tag="LOC_BARBARIAN_SWEDES_2 <Text>Swedish Empire</Text>
- At one point, this was the name of a unit in the scenario. That Civilopedia entry didn't just get pulled out of thin air, and it's still present in the PolandScenario_CivilopediaText XML file.
- Since the Teutonic Knight is statistically identical to a standard Knight, I suspect it was removed and replaced by the Knight as the unit that represents this particular barbarian tribe. I suggest leaving the page here for legacy purposes and perhaps making a note in the intro about the change (if anyone can discover exactly when it was made). -Mythril Wyrm (talk) 14:12, April 22, 2020 (UTC)
- I don't see a point of keeping this page in the wiki if noone is able to contain a game version with this DLC where this unit exists. I will try to improve Jadwigas Legacy scenario pages when I'm done with icons. - Robal (talk) 17:19, April 22, 2020 (UTC)
- I disagree with you. As I mentioned above, the unit's Civilopedia entry is still accessible in the XML files, and it would be patently dishonest to delete this page as though the unit never existed.
- Feel free to clarify your position if that's not what you're suggesting. -Mythril Wyrm (talk) 17:48, April 22, 2020 (UTC)
- Yes I see this term, but it isnt displayed in the in-game civilopedia anywhere. I think that terms tags are wrong here, because they dont match unit names. Look at the Jadwigas Legacy Civilopedia at Barbarian Horse Archer for example. It has no historical context, because there is no term LOC_PEDIA_UNITS_PAGE_UNIT_BARBARIAN_HORSE_ARCHER_CHAPTER_HISTORY_PARA_1, but there is LOC_PEDIA_UNITS_PAGE_UNIT_HORSE_ARCHER_CHAPTER_HISTORY_PARA_1 which is unused.
- The same story is with LOC_PEDIA_UNITS_PAGE_UNIT_TEUTONIC_KNIGHT_CHAPTER_HISTORY_PARA_1. I think the tag should be LOC_PEDIA_UNITS_PAGE_UNIT_BARBARIAN_HORSEMAN_CHAPTER_HISTORY_PARA_1, because such unit exists in the scenario and has no historical context too. -Robal (talk) 19:02, April 22, 2020 (UTC)
- What's your point, then? That the page should be deleted because the tags are poorly named and the unit isn't currently part of the scenario? I'm 100% certain that it was when the page was first created, and a little peeved with Firaxis for failing to document the changes. -Mythril Wyrm (talk) 21:53, April 22, 2020 (UTC)
- I see your point too. Let's keep it as it is with your newest change :)
- I'm quite satisfied with that. :) -Mythril Wyrm (talk) 13:50, April 23, 2020 (UTC)
- Back to the topic :D - I've done some more reseach today: I've downloaded every public version of Jadwiga's Legacy scenario available at steam db: https://steamdb.info/depot/512033/manifests/. There were 17 versions of this scenario on public steam build. I haven't found this unit in any of these versions:
- no sign of unit definition in PolandScenario_Units.xml file
- no unit icon in PolandScenario_Icons_Units.xml or PolandScenario_Icons_UnitPortraits.xml files
- I compared downloaded folders with a windows diff tool and I've looked over all changes across all 17 builds. I'm still opting to delete this page. In some other discussion (about barb unique units) you said that noone will dig in the XML files to find that barbs have unique units (although they are present in the standard game!) and that we should not create separate pages for them, because they are not present in the in-game civilopedia. But here you want to keep the page, because there is a civilopedia entry in the xml files, although the unit never existed in my opinion.
- Back to the topic :D - I've done some more reseach today: I've downloaded every public version of Jadwiga's Legacy scenario available at steam db: https://steamdb.info/depot/512033/manifests/. There were 17 versions of this scenario on public steam build. I haven't found this unit in any of these versions:
- With all due respect, your opinion is wrong. I know this because I was the one who originally created this page, and I typed it based on what was in the XML files and what I saw when I loaded up the scenario back in April 2017. Had I known that the unit would later be removed from the scenario, I would have taken a screenshot to prove it existed, but we're now in a position where that's impossible.
- I support keeping the page because I'm absolutely certain that this unit once existed in the scenario. To say otherwise is to suggest that I'm either lying or misread what was on my screen as I played the game. Besides, if we were to delete this page, it would set a precedent for deleting Sack (Civ6) (which was removed from the game in the February 7, 2018 Update) and at least part of the Civilopedia entry for Science Foundations (Civ6) (which was rewritten when the policy was renamed in Gathering Storm). Deleting all pages for removed content as though it was never a part of the game is a kind of revisionism I vehemently oppose.
- I'm sorry if this message comes across as rude, but if I haven't managed to make my point by now, I doubt that anything else I have to say will change your mind. -Mythril Wyrm (talk) 23:14, June 28, 2020 (UTC)
- I don't want to be rude too, but it's possible to play an older version of the scenario and that's exactly what I did. I played the version from March 2017 - the game was working fine - and I saw no Teutonic Knight unit. As I said I've downloaded every version of the Jadwiga's Legacy scenario (17 versions in total) and carefully looked over the game files. I've uploaded the folders here you can take a look (I've deleted the BLP files): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sB0QnEHiaYRIaGyyXfnxCuT0aHubsSqQ/view?usp=sharing
- I've also watched couple of youtube videos from 2017 where people are playing the Jadwiga's Legacy scenario and I saw no such unit. I don't want to remove pages with content that once existed, I'm just thinking that this unit never existed. But it's hard for me to believe that you have misread something when you were creating this page. You are the admin and you have the final word. Just respond that you want to keep the page and we will close the discussion - I will be fine with that :) Robal (talk) 06:57, June 29, 2020 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm getting too emotionally invested in this situation (which I shouldn't - it's a binary question of whether this unit was once part of the scenario or not), but as long as I'm in a position to make the final call, I can't support deleting this page. If, after I retire from editing this wiki, another admin revisits this discussion and decides that you've made a better case for getting rid of the page than I have for keeping it, I'll have to abide by that...but for now, I say it should stay.
- Thank you for your willingness to keep a dialogue going, and for all your fine work on this wiki. -Mythril Wyrm (talk) 14:07, June 29, 2020 (UTC)